Friday, February 19, 2016

"The Talmud isn't the Bible"

There is an argument I've heard many a time, and that argument is that "the Talmud isn't canonized in the Bible, it's not the word of God". This idea comes from a complete lack of understanding the Torah.

It also comes from the erroneous "sola scriptura" doctrine of mainly the Protestants. But don't they think the "Old Testament" isn't binding except for paying your tithes to the preacher? Oh, the irony. Well, I'm not going to focus on them. Instead, as the blog title implies, I'll focus on what many Messianics believe.

Many Messianics succumb to Karaite-like thinking, which rejects the Talmud, which is the codification of the oral Torah. You know, the Karaites, who were okay with Jews being killed by the Nazis, and appealed to the Nazis to not be considered Jewish? Heard of them? Yeah, what bigger sell outs, what bigger disgraces of human beings could there be? But let's not "judge", right?

What about the Torah commanding proper slaughter of animals, but it doesn't tell you how. Not just that it doesn't tell you exactly how - it doesn't tell you how at all. In fact, there are lots of details you have to be aware of when properly slaughtering an animal. In a super short and incomplete summary, you have to slice the neck of the animal with a super sharp knife or blade that is checked in an intricate way for nicks. Then, you have to cut at least a certain amount through certain signs in the animal's neck. Afterwards, you have to cover the blood. There's more, but I'll leave it at that.

So if you read Deuteronomy 17 and don't know who the Court has been over the past thousands and thousands of years dating back to Moses - and there's only one candidate - who do you think it is? Are you stupid?

Let's look at some facts. What Karaite or sola scriptura Messianic could tell me what "a man shall not leave his place on the Sabbath" means? Do you sit at home, don't leave your house? What if you drive to your congregation on Shabbat, as most Messianics do. If you're so into the plain written meaning of the Torah - how can you do that and call yourself a "Torah keeper"?

The only reply I've received about this issue is that "the mitzva of congregating on the Sabbath outweighs leaving your place". What? From where? What logic? Which verses and what logic? Oh, I forgot, Yeshu said: "the Sabbath was created for man, not the man for the Sabbath" - so that means you can break Shabbat at your convenience, since Shabbat is supposed to be at your convenience? What about the man who was killed for collecting some wood on Shabbat, as the plain text of the Torah recalls?

And secondly, where does it say you can't collect some sticks on Shabbat? It's not "work" - right? Thank God, most Messianics aren't among Israel and therefore don't need to keep Shabbat, and they have no judgment for not keeping Shabbat. This is because the Torah was only delivered to Israel. And no, you can't just believe in some dead, heretical mamzer-Jew, and then consider yourself a Jew. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that that's not the way it works. If you do think that's how it works... I've got news for you. You're an idiot. Or just completely ignorant of the Torah, including the plain text of the Torah.

What about "don't light a fire in all of your dwellings on the day of the Sabbath"? I've heard from the ignorant Messianics that this means "work fires". Oh yeah? Reading things into the plain text? I thought you were against "man-made rules" that are extra-Biblical - am I wrong? That's exactly what YOU'RE doing by saying it means "work fires" and not any fire. The text of the Torah says "fire", plainly, it means every fire, any kind of fire, anywhere. If you don't get that, it means you don't know what the word מלאכה, which most horribly translate as simply "work", means. At all.

Since these laws were given only to Israel, a gentile who slaughters an animal - even properly - renders the meat invalid. Eating meat from an invalidly slaughtered animal, even when the slaughterer was a Jew who just missed one little detail, is a serious sin - if you've done it knowingly.

Messianics know nothing about any of these things. If you want to know why we have such intricate details about some commandments - that's why we Breslovers have the super extraordinary book Likutei Halakhot, which explains the inner workings of the Torah, combining and unifying verses of the Tanakh, statements of the Sages in the Talmudim and Midrashim, the Zohar, and the writings of the Ari z"l.

Yes, there are reasons why we do seemingly "minute" details. They all have reasons which the human mind can hardly grasp. They're from God, Who is infinite, His Torah is infinite in depth and wisdom.

So why would the Sages, who themselves authored the Talmud, not canonize the Talmud into the Tanakh? Because the Talmud is contained in the words of the Torah - it's the detail to the Tanakh, the background, the explanation. It was always orally relayed from the Judges of each generation to those of the next, and the instruction of the Torah was relayed to the common people from them - exactly as Deuteronomy 17 states! In plain language! The oral Torah is commanded to be obeyed by the written Torah itself.

Who else claimed to have the explanation of the Torah passed down to them from Moses to the Court he ordained, to the later High Courts throughout the generations? Who else even knows about certain Torah ordinances that were enacted in the days of Joshua, Samuel, David, Solomon, Ezra, etc? NO ONE ELSE besides those who codified this ancient oral Torah into written form, known as the Mishne and Gemara which are the two parts of the Talmud.

There is no other in depth explanation of the Torah that so enlightening, so life giving (in that it actually allows you to carry out the commandments of the Torah!), than what the faithful of the Jewish people have been learning and living throughout this long exile. There's no other candidate for it. I'm sorry to tell you, but if you don't change, you'll get to the end, and the angel of death (who is a very real entity) will say to you: "I'm sorry, but the Jews were right".

The Jews were right, have been right, and will be right. This is God's test for the nations, and so far, Edom/Christianity and Ismael/Islam have failed. That's God's plan, however, since by wrecking Edom as a people (God says he hates Edom in Malachi), he allowed the concepts of the Messiah, redemption, resurrection of the dead, and belief in the Hebrew Bible to exist among the people of Edom. Any of those gentiles who survive the worldwide catastrophic events awaiting us before the coming of the Messiah - and there likely won't be many - will now be able to understand what the heck just happened. They'll be able to submit and serve the True Messiah and the Jewish people, in a resurrected Suka of David, a restored Davidic Kingdom.

It would be wise to get with it before it's too late - but in my experience, people aren't so privy to changing their ways. Even when they're argued out of them, logically, time and time again.


  1. "Do you sit at home, don't leave your house? What if you drive to your congregation on Shabbat, as most Messianics do."

    Yes, that's what make me stop to keep Shabbat. First, I don't have to, but mostly, because messianic think they keep shabbat, but they all do what's right in their own eye. So basically, even if they don't follow Shabbat at all, they think they do!

    Hi Aaron, I would like to know more about the Talmud. It's quite a long book, I guess that not everybody reads it. I have been, at the beginning of my journey as non-christian with the idea of Karaite judaism, but I realized, after following Gene's blog that it's not a good idea. But I never read the Talmud. I also feel it's a bite useless as I am not Jewish and won't be able to put in practice what I read. Where should I start, in the first place? And would you like to share more about the topic? Also, I heard that some Jewish book should not be read by non-Jews. Would the Talmud be one of them, or it's just the Zohar and mystic writing?

    Thanks a lot.


    1. What not leaving your place on Shabbat means is not walking outside of the 2,000 ammoth ("cubits") distance outside your city.

      Basically, the oral Torah is comprised of many facts, explanations, and details about the 613 commandments of Torah, as well as the enactments of the High Courts (Sanhedrins) throughout the generations since Moses.

      Just like the 10 Commandments are expanded into 613 commandments, the 613 commandments are expanded into detail in the oral Torah, which without it, you wouldn't know how to carry out the 613 commandments.

      The Talmud is comprised of the Mishna (a more core composition of the oral Torah, more basic and less explained) and the Gemara (the "finishing", meaning the further expounding of the Mishna into its full detail). Out of the Mishna and Gemara come mainly two things:
      1. Halakha, which is practical observance of the mitzvot, the how-to guide of the 613 commandments, and
      2. Aggada, narratives, background details to events and people in Tanakh, morals, ethics, and more.

      Later Rabbis took the final halakhic rulings from the Talmud (Mishna and Gemara), and wrote them down without much of the background information. These Rabbis are known as "Posqim" or "Poskim". They put the practical how-to of the mitzvot into clear and concise "this is what you do" format. It's better to start by learning this.


      A gentile may not keep Shabbos or a day of rest (without doing melacha) on any day of the week (Gemara Sanhedrin 58b). The reason for this is subject to dispute. Rashi explains that a non-Jew is obligated to work everyday because the Torah writes, "Yom VaLayla Lo Yishbosu," which can be interpreted to mean, "Day and night they (i.e., the non-Jews) may not rest." The Rambam (Hilchos Melachim 10:9), however explains that a gentile is prohibited from making his own holiday, or religious observance because the Torah is opposed to the creation of man-made religions. In the words of the Rambam, "A non-Jew is not permitted to create his own religion or mitzvah. Either he becomes a righteous convert (a ger tzedek) and accepts the observance of all the mitzvos, or he remains with the laws that he has without adding or detracting." A third reason mentioned is that a Jew may mistakenly learn from a gentile who keeps a day of rest and the Jew may create his own mitzvos (Meiri).

      (rabbi Kaganof)
      You may teach a non Jew the 7 laws of Noah, but not Orah Oraita.
      Shavuah tov.

    3. Hi, thanks for the comment.

      You're confusing "goy" with "Bnei Noah". They're not the same thing.

      Consider Mishne Torah hil. Melakhim U-Milhhamoth 10:11(9):
      "גּוֹי שֶׁעָסַק בַּתּוֹרָה, חַיָּב מִיתָה..."
      but then, 10:13(10):
      "בֶּן נוֹחַ שֶׁרָצָה לַעֲשׂוֹת מִצְוָה מִשְּׁאָר מִצְווֹת הַתּוֹרָה, כְּדֵי לְקַבַּל שָׂכָר--אֵין מוֹנְעִין אוֹתוֹ לַעֲשׂוֹת אוֹתָהּ כְּהִלְכָּתָהּ"

      Messianics (provided they're not halakhicly Jewish) are obviously not Bnei Noah, they're goyim/`akum, they're guilty of idolatry AND of creating their own religion. But my friend Remi above, who isn't Jewish, isn't a goy either, he's a Ben Noah.

    4. After the fall of Adam to level 666 from level 777(Shabbat), all are Bnei Noah.
      Just by the merritt of our forefathers Avraham, Itschak and Jaacov we can see ourselves on level 777, by doing the 613 mitzvot.
      Everyone who is a none Jew suppose to keep the 7 mitzvot, with no excuse.
      If they do, is their own choice.
      Good for your friend who found the way.
      In the messianic ERA of 1000 years without yetzer ha ra, we are the Kingdom of PRIESTS OF HASHEM, who will teach Torah to the whole world that will be elevated to the level of Israel. Yes, the Noachides, people that choose to follow Hashems HIS commandments to them, will be then educated by the Jews, out of Yerushalayim, the HOLY KINGDOM OF HASHEM.
      When the mamzer refused to follow these strict rules, being himself a typical apicorous, he created a whole cult around himself of our future number 1 enemy!!!
      I know you want to help..
      When your brother is lost, do all you can to bring him back, as he is equal part of you, as we all are.
      When a gentile love Hashem enough to not to hate us, be good for him.
      Teaching the secrets of Torah is excluded from now till the time is right.For now it is included just for halachic Jew.
      Thank you for reading.
      Kol tuv.
      Orna Nitzevet

    5. I didn't teach him secrets, I said HaShem is infinite, above time, space, and matter, plus even if I said too much, which you're accusing me of, it's not teaching because you can't teach one who doesn't listen.

      This argument with Carlos is for the whole world to see how ridiculous and stupid the arguments for Yeshu are.

      Also, I vehemently disagree about your pacificstic views. I think you're way off. Even if a Messianic or Christian doesn't hate the Jew - as long as he wants to convert the Jew, he is a GREATER THREAT than those who just want to take our physical lives. Instead, they want to take our spiritual lives.

      I'm for Jewish supremacy and imperialism, which is what you get when the galut ends. Yes, it means we subjugate the nations. Peace coms when the nations submit to us, not when we learn to love the nations who are by-and-large evil and not even considered human beings.

    6. "I heard that some Jewish book should not be read by non-Jews."

      As I said, I am not trying to learn any secret, only what is right for me to learn. There are things that non-jews can follow and some should not. I heard that the Shabbat should not be kept totally, what can and cannot be read? Can a non-jew read the Talmud?

      Aaron, I think you are right, Christian are a great treat for the Jews. Better wake up guys! Ignoring them won't help, they keep on sending money to help Israel and all tithe is use for that specific purpose! Millions and millions of dollars are used to convert you!

  2. Not only do they not give sources to their explanations that do not come from the Talmud (because they do not exist), but they do not give proof to the validity of the new testament at all. The book is not written in the holy language, is full of mistakes, is not mentioned in the old testament, and yet they treat it like it is gold. Meanwhile, they ignore parts of the old testament, like you said, Devarim 17. I can easily compare the latter part of that statement to a lot of Jews, who simply ignore/deny parts of the Torah that do not fit their comfort, call it "open mindedness" and bash those that do not follow. Anybody who denies any part of the Torah does not have any actual fear of HaShem. Furthermore, to add a whole book that has no validity and come up with your own explanations of things in the old testament and actually take them to be valid is a DISGRACE.

    1. Exactly, there is no winning an argument against them, in their minds, no matter how embarrassingly shot down their stupid beliefs are.

  3. אורנה,

    I'm appreciate your comments and I'm for anyone commenting with what's on their minds - but what kind of Jew comes along and condemns another Jew's total destruction of a xtian's comments? I don't care what the grounds are, this blog is something great, and you have to come along and nitpick. Shame on you.

    1. Mr. Michael,
      I agree with that when someone come to 'convert' us, they are worse then the ones that just want to kill our body.
      My comments where not mean for nitpicking, but for making it more easy and clear not just for you but also many others.
      Every part of the Creation have a certain very specific reason.
      We Jews are here to serve with wisdom given to us by Hashem when we strictly follow His commandments.
      Not a easy task.
      The person above yhat you argued with, might be ready or is on medication, and appears slightly schizophrenic.
      That was my reason to say, that there is no need to argue with him, let him be.
      The supremacy is reserved to these, that loose their klippot by turning back to all avoda zara, and truly welcome the life of daily observing MITZVOT.
      A very heavy task for all of us that can be done just by truly selfless love of Hashem and all His creation.
      Yeshu did not love himself enough to love Hashem enough and truly observe the mitzvot without becoming an apicorous, then one that let get lost many Jewish neshamot into avoda zara by being frivolous with the rules of Jewish faith that are not to be compromised same way as the whole Orah Oraita cannot be detracted or added upon.
      I had to learn this the hard way...and hoped you to spare that, thats all.

  4. He sent letter trying to convert a friend, the friend sent me his email to discuss his claims. So you agree with responding to such a thing, yet you still tell me to leave him alone?

    Your idea of love is a fallen love, I addressed that on the other post in depth.

  5. Ok, now its clear, why you did it, to protect a Jew, right?
    In that case I understand.
    If your friend is Jewish, he did well to let you know this, for he needs strength.
    Kever Tzadikim are good start, to shake off the sleazy dirt that was pointed at him.

    Now do not assume, as I just did...
    I love Hashems creation, but have very strong aversion to monkeys (milchamat people from tower of Bavel), chazirim, snakes, dogs(symbol of Rome) and cats (mitzrayim= yetzer ha ra). I could explain you more, but I hope I do not need to.

  6. My friend doesn't need help. He knows more Torah than I do, not even comparable, and he is decades older than me. He sent me to answer this guy because of my experience handling these guys' claims.

  7. That's because messianic/christians are deceptive. They always quotes things out of context and most of the time, they don't show you in the Bible to read the context!

    1. Absolutely, and I have the history and ability to deal with the claims. My "friend" is a hidden tzadik, his father walked to Israel all the way from Yemen and passed away at nearly 110 years old. His father also knew many Torah books by heart, after he went blind in old age, he could learn Gemara by memory.

      I'm just a person who is so familiar with Christian and Messianic claims, I know what to answer them because I used to be of their mindset.

  8. Hi.. Loved the article! And you're so right. Those who deny the Divine Nature of the Oral Torah have to make up their own "oral history" in order to understand the Written Torah.

    As for the Messianics--the Messy-antics (as I call them) are the Frankensteins of xianity. As you know, the whole movement was created in the theological petri dishes of the Southern Baptist/Evangelical Movement. They were created with the sole (or rather "soul") purpose of mimicking and deceiving Jews through a white-wash of what appears to be Jewish but upon scraping the layer off, really isn't. Now three generations into this abomination, these Messy-antic have the gall to say that they are "biblical" Jews while Torah Observant Jews are "Rabbinic" Jews.

    Rabbi Tovia Singer has been battling these morons (and they are morons as we'll see in a moment) for decades and raised a very, very good question: Is it just a coincidence that everything the Messy-antics do to distance themselves from BOTH their xian brethren and the Jews they are supposed to be superior to is entirely "Rabbinic" (meaning that, at least on face value, has no biblical basis for) while everything that they don't observe/keep is actually mentioned in the bible? Coincidence? No.

    And it wouldn't be. The whole movement is based on deception. Why I say that is, like you brought out, these messy-antics go around saying "sola Scriptura! Sola Scriptura! We only go by what the bible says". But they have no idea what the Bible says, let alone what Judaism is predicated upon. If these Messy-antics are so "biblical", then what's up with wearing the Kippah? What's up with uttering the Brichat Rishon? What's up with affixing the Mezzuzah on an angle? How do they know when Hanukah is and more importantly, why are they even celebrating it, or Purim since neither are directly mentioned in the Written Torah? In fact, how do they even know how to read and pronounce what's in a Torah Scroll since there are no vowels? How are they even able to recite it? Additionally, how do they even know when the Festivals and holidays and even the Shabbat begin? How do they even begin calculating anything in the Jewish calendar? They do so because they are nothing more than barking copy-cats! They'll trust the Jews for what books are in the Bible and when the holidays are and even (!) how to read Hebrew, but beyond that, "oh! The Jews are "rabbinical"".

    Yet none of them observe the laws of family purity, or not carrying things on Shabbat or reciting the Brichat HaMazon, etc. because it would not add value because their whole raison detre is simply a sham. Any similarity to Jews and Judaism is purely intentional. But they have the gall to call Observant Jews "Rabbinic" and have no problem adding things into the bible to support their theology (when the Texts clearly say something different). We're the ones who are deemed "blind" and "follow the rabbis" yet they are the ones who have no problem with the "Rabbinic" decrees (based on the bible) that suit their game of Jewish dress up.

    My point? Exposing one fraud of these messy-antics reveals a whole house of AntiSemitic cards of these charlatans who, ironically, are funded by the Southern Baptist movement. And in terms of theology, there is no fundamental difference between a Messy-antic and a mainline, fundamental, born-again, Evangelical Christian.. EXCEPT… the xian is not ashamed to call himself as such and is at least honest in that regard.

  9. Ajalon. Well said. The only good thing about the messianic movement is that it's so obvious that some people realize the fraud of it and turn to Judaism. More people turn to Judaism than Jews to Messianic. It is really just Christianity with a kippah :)